My tones aren’t very good - why?

Plugins
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I’ve been playing around with several NDSP plugins to get some killer hard rock/heavy metal sounds for a new album I’m planning to record, but no matter what plugin and setting combinations I use, it all sounds a bit “meh” and “truck enginy” if that makes sense, rather than the rich, nicely saturated tones I’m looking for. What am I doing wrong?

FYI, I have been using Plini, Soldano and Morgan, and making my own presets rather than using already made ones because most of them don’t sound too great to my ears.

I’m using a Behringer UM2 and have been careful with the input gain levels on the interface, and have experimented with different input levels on the plugins as well.

I’m using a Charvel Pro Mod So Cal and Seymour Duncan Distortion bridge pickup.

Here are some sample mixes to show you what I’m talking about:

https://on.soundcloud.com/nvOcmxS1xb6kuOEPMG

https://on.soundcloud.com/X2bnMURwP9OfUbw4bm

https://on.soundcloud.com/PUpAukkvHVWjmBLyYu

https://on.soundcloud.com/vHnSo4bkFE2hnHhskx

They don’t sound like the technical setup is “wrong” or anything, they just don’t sound very good or “albumworthy” to my ears. What do you all think?

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@AdrianDave75 Welcome and thanks for posting samples, that always helps!

I don’t hear anything “wrong” per se from my perspective. First, sound is subjective so your ears know your sound and what you’re looking for better than I ever could. But these tones you’re getting sound like great starting points, truthfully.

It’s important to keep in mind that the tones you get from these plugins are great amp tones on their own, yet it’s the mixing/mastering phase of the process that will ultimately get them across the finish line into “albumworthy” territory. There are multiple things that get added during the mixing phase such as additional compression, EQ sculpting, additional time-based effects… these things all add up to take your tone from a good preset foundation to record with, to a final sound on record. My take is this: I don’t look at the plugins as a way of generating a one-and-done solution for getting a tone that sounds exactly as it does during recording as it would on the final bounce. But rather, they’re a platform to build that great feeling amp tone that makes playing such a joy, which then gets mixed/mastered to make the final bounce sound albumworthy.

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Thanks, that’s a great perspective. And I agree the tones aren’t “bad” or anything, but like you said they would probably sound better when they’ve gone through the mixing and mastering process, which I would be using a professional for. Just out of curiosity, which of those four samples sounded best to your ears?

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Hi. The Soundcloud links aren’t working for me at the moment but I thought I would chime in.

I don’t know your familiarity with guitar amp plug-ins, nor the recording / mixing / mastering process. I may say some things you already know but it’s not meant to be condescending.

CABS MAKE A DIFFERENCE

Inside the plug-ins themselves, the cab modeling makes the biggest difference in sound. Even with all of the EQ controls on the amps and the EQ sections in the plug-ins, moving different microphones around in the cab model section will make a massive impact on the overall tone. Usually there’s a default combination of a 57 with a 421 mic. Get in there and start moving them around, then try other mics. (I tend to keep the 57 for brightness, and play around with other mics to dial in some warmth.)

If you already have external impulse responses you prefer, you can load them into the NDSP plug-in and use them rather than the proprietary cab.

Don’t forget, you can mix and match plug-ins inside of a DAW environment. For example, you can run the amp model only from Soldano SLO-100 and run it into the cab model only of Plini, etc., using multiple instances of plug-ins on the same track. You might find something cool if you’re adventurous and patient enough, but I cannot guarantee any kind of results.

LISTENING ENVIRONMENT MATTERS

Are you listening back with headphones or a studio monitor setup? Your perception of the guitar tone may change drastically just from switching from headphones to monitors and vice versa. Try listening to both, loudly. If you can get a good tone through both, you’re probably in a good spot to use for recording.

IT’S ALL ABOUT THE MIX

“Albumworthy”, or more often the term “mix ready”, may be a bit of a misnomer. It implies that no other processing needs to be done on the guitar track, which is almost certainly untrue. As @keith said, there are EQ and compression decisions to be made which move away from “does my guitar sound good” and toward “how well does this sit in the mix”.

Stereo double-tracking is a common method to make your guitars sound full in the mix. If you’re playing power chords for some main rhythm parts, then try recording multiples of the same part and panning them 100% left and right. You may find that it takes surprisingly little tone shaping in the amp plug-ins (left side / right side) to get an awesome sound. [Don’t bother with the Doubler in the NDSP plug-ins; you will want to fully record each left / right track for the best stereo results.]

If you’re sending your tracks to a mix engineer, chances are they may already have some of the Neural DSP plug-ins in their DAW. In that case it’s important to send them the raw, unprocessed D.I. guitar tracks (in addition to “your” amp-modeled tracks) so they can load them into any plug-in.

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I prefer the second link :slightly_smiling_face:

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Thanks, these are all great points. I do play around with the cabs and mics quite a bit, but to my ears they are more akin to an eq than to an actual change in the tone, which I believe to be mostly driven by the amp, and any od/distortion that might be driving it. I may be completely wrong of course. My quest is to capture that “core” tone as nicely as I can, as I don’t believe even the best cab or IR in the world can rescue a subpar amp/pedal tone.

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Fair enough. Might be good to try more of the plug-ins (free trial), if you haven’t already, and see if they do anything for you. Mesa Mark IIC+ and Granophyre are great options for unique kinds of saturation. But you should be able to get that really easily with Soldano.

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Yeah, lots to choose from. And I’m making it even more complicated by doing extra versions that have some other od virtual pedals I have as boosters (no to low gain typically), as well as trying the same parts with my other Charvel that has a J-90C humbucker. The choices can really be overwhelming!

Question: Can the interface make a significant difference in the tone? For example, if all else is constant, could switching from Behringer to, say, Focusrite or M-Audio make a noticeable tone change, or would it just be a nuance at most?

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If you would describe changing cab mic positions as merely manipulating an EQ–because the amp model is the tone center that you’re focused on–then you should reject the notion that an interface change will help.

Analog-to-digital (ADC) and digital-to-analog (DAC) converter ICs may differ from one interface to another, but that tech is very developed. Interfaces may sound a little different here and there, but not that much. (Though the guys with Universal Audio interfaces costing over $1K will swear up and down that they do.) Try not to get hung up on it.

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Makes sense, thanks!

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That was very well said man :+1:

For guitar I primarily use the interfacing capabilities of the QC, but for everything else I’m back to Focusrite from an Apollo Solo… and my ears are just as happy (if not more because my wallet also agrees).

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Hi, have you tried sending your stems out to be mixed by a mixing engineer? We sometimes get a bit of ear fatigue from listening too much and get a case of analysis by paralysis .

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That’s a good point, and I agree after a while the sounds all become a blur in my mind. I’ll send my sound engineer some samples when the time comes to mix the album. I’ll go ahead and record the album anyway, and when it’s time to get the output files exported track by track, I’m planning to send him a few options using my favorite presets. I haven’t bought any of the plugins yet, but based on my trials so far, Soldano, Nolly and Plini seem to be the strongest contenders. I’ll probably buy two of those. If he thinks they all suck, I’ll let him use some of his plugins instead and send me mixes he made using those, and I’ll make the final call on whether the ones that use his plugins sound better than mine. I don’t know what plugins he uses, but I don’t believe the are Neural DSP. He is a “purist” who always wants to mic real amps but the budget goes through the roof if we had to do that, so I’m really trying to get very satisfying sounds out of the NDSP plugins if I can.

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Whatever you choose — you’ll be right. Not that you need my two cents, but I have a personal selection bias toward Nolly, as there’s definitely a few presets that inspire me right from the jump with minimal tweaking.

Either way @AdrianDave75, your best tool is your ears so if you like what you hear then you are going to be 100% right (and kudos for also being open to others’ input, that’s a wonderful attitude to have). Lastly, I like what you said in response to @rinkydinky about ear fatigue — after a while, things can definitely get jumbled together. My last mix session was this weekend and after 7h, you know what helped? Rest. Listener fatigue is as real as it gets, man. It was a night-and-day difference from Saturday to Sunday what I was able to do with my track.

Perhaps the plugin I used in my mixing bus was named: Yo! Walk Away, Man! Go Get Some Sleep, Idiot!™

Because wow, it works :rofl:

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My friend, download the Fortin nameless X plugin and use it during the trial period. It was the best plugin for heavy and hardcore sound that I heard on QC.

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Tried that but it’s not the sound I’m going for, which is less Meshuggah and more Iron Maiden.

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If Maiden-inspired tones are what you’re chasing, there’s a couple options:

  1. ToneGarage has a mess of presets for 4 quid that are all tailored to Iron Maiden tones, created using the Archetype Nolly plugin: Neural DSP Plugin Iron Maiden Collection . If you got the plugin, this could be a great jumping off point for you
  2. When Quad Cortex users got CorOS 3.3.0, we got an updated 1987 JCM800 in there. Maiden was all about the Marshall amps. It’s not for my tastes, but I know Maiden lovers swear by that Marshall sound — and since amp #2 in the Nolly plugin is a capture of Nolly’s modded Marshall JCM800, perhaps that’s a great starting point. Play around with the trial if you’re interested.

*Credit where credit is due: a user on TGP named “caio” compiled a seriously impressive breakdown on Maiden’s gear. I didn’t read the entire thing, but around page 30 it was clear there’s some cool info there, if not just for the pics alone: Iron Maiden - Equipment of the guitarists after 1980 | The Gear Page

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Great resources, thanks!

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