You’re overthinking this. You keep insisting that the NDSP plug-ins aren’t “mix ready”, but that’s always going to be a moving target.
Also, you didn’t even mention how you’re approaching IRs / cab sims, which is one of the BIGGEST and most important parts of the whole guitar sound. Are you using the stock cab sim models in the plug-in? If so, what mics and settings are you using? Have you tried loading external IRs?
When I do any kind of mixing, I never expect that the amp modeler plug-ins I use (not just NDSP) are 100% “mix ready”. I will still go through the process of applying EQ and compression to make guitars sit well in the mix, just as I would with any other kind of track.
Hello, I appreciate your thoughts on this… but I will agree to disagree.
The reason we are using AMP Sims/captures - is for convenience only. So we don’t have to have the amp present, and either have to MIC a cab, or use a loadbox etc…
So with convenience in mind: If we have to change cab sims, mic positions, add EQ & compression - etc… just to make it usable to inspire us to play guitar, then we have missed the point of convenience.
The owner at STL tones had this conversation with a Nashville session guitarist friend of mine. Where he mentioned that STL’s goal is to make VSTs that sound good on ANYONEs rig - and not just their own.
I understand if you enjoy having tones that aren’t mix ready - and don’t mind putting in all that effort - but for the same reason that I use mix ready drums, I want something that works right away.
Now - some of the Neural DSP plugins are better than others at this. Such as Rabea, Gojira. But then some are really bad at this such as Plini, Petrucci.
And if you’re trying to dismiss that this isn’t a real issue - McRocklin literally made his entire promotion about his plugin as “These are mixready tones that sound good right out of the box”. And they do. As dumb as it sounds… PRESETS should sound good. When you hop on a keyboard - and you wanna know like - what can this thing do? Presets are everything. AXE-FX did this same thing of having horrible sounding presets - where everyone had to go on the forums to find out how to make it sound good. And welp, the hype around the AXE-FX is NOT THERE like it used to be.
It’s very easy to make guitar tones that are usable without requiring a whole signal chain to fix the “issues” that don’t need to be there in the first place.
Like I said we will probably just agree to disagree here - but I feel that nobody is here seeking out raw poorly captured/EQ’d tones so they can show off their skills to do EQ correction and fix them (ala making a Line 6 POD sound good).
Presets are helpful for getting in the ballpark what a featured artist uses or might use. But to insist that they sound amazing to your ears–and ignore all else like your guitar, your pickups, your input gain settings, your monitors, your listening environment, etc.–it’s just not going to get you very far.
Let’s go back to your comment about the original sound example you provided:
Combining two different tones into one for that lead line. Isn’t that going against what you’re arguing for? Why wasn’t one of those amp tones enough by itself? You had to put in some amount of work to get what sounded good to you, which has to mean that those tones were not “mix ready”. Quite frankly, “mix ready” is a buzz term by companies to sell more plug-ins.
Doubling down on “the EQ is wrong in Archetype Plini” is a weird hill to die on. Maybe pull up a search in this forum and see if anyone else is hearing what you’re hearing. Good luck to you.
Here’s the problem with your first paragraph. We can take a bad preset - and place it under ANY guitar, pickups, input gain, monitors, listening environment, and it will almost NEVER sound good.
I imagine that Neural DSPs stuff, sounds good on THEIR equipment. That was the point of STL Tones was making… it can’t just sound good on THEIR end, or else it’s useless.
And for that last part - my point was, we know what a good guitar tone sounds like. There is a reason we love tube amps. They have that tube saturation, and harmonic overtones, and that fuzzy nature to them… that just sit so well in mixes. And yeah you can EQ out harsh freqs, cut bass if you want etc… but the raw signal tone is great.
So my point was - why has Neural DSP in general - EQ’d their tones in a way that really only sound good on their end, and don’t sound good on anyone elses setup? Even the new Petrucci X plugin - has a different default preset, that sounds totally different than the original Petrucci Plugin. So clearly they wanted to change up the opening “impression” that that plugin gave you right off the bat.
In other words - they are more than capable of EQing tones to give you what sounds like what you would be hearing out of these actual amps.
We can go back and take a random Plini preset… say his “lead tone”… and compare that tone to the actual album tone for the same song/same part. And it won’t sound anywhere close. That’s a problem in my opinion. Because then I have to EQ match it - to get it actually correct and I shouldn’t have to.
Again - this is just differing opinions. But I quit buying NDSP stuff after other companies came out with stuff that was more useable, and even the free Neural Amp Modeler - runs circles around the NDSP stuff for the most part.
And this is just feedback if they want to continue selling stuff that we actually want to buy lol. Nothing more.
Uhhh, the general consensus I’ve seen for Fractal is that their presets do sound good for a starting point. They’re just annoying to purchase because it’s only direct sales from Fractal. There’s barely any stores (if any?) that sell Fractal, compared to Sweetwater and Thomann (arguably the biggest music retailers for US and Europe) selling the QC.
Mix ready presets for plugins is pretty subjective because there are so many variables in mixes. Many people may consider the artist presets they make to be “mix ready”, but obv it’ll sound completely different because of guitar/pickups, technique, monitors, etc.
Most people want something that will sound like the actual amp and not what some random person thinks is “mix ready.” Also the IR can change the sound a ton, aside from the amp model.
Lets take a random backing track. Then looks boot up various NDSP plugins. Let’s just set all the knobs to 12 which is normal starting point on an amp, and then we make adjustments.
It would be very clear in this demonstration - to you, to me, to everyone else here… which ones have a midrange that sounds like you’re playing IN the song… versus sounding like you’re playing OVERTOP of the song.
The thing is - if they sounded LIKE the amps - they would work better in this situation. Example - the Petrucci plugin sounds NOTHING like a 2C+… and thats what it supposed to have been modeled after. What does sound like a 2C+? ML5 Soundlabs version of the Petrucci JP2C. Why? Because it was captured better and sounds more like the actual amp… The Nolly plugin was the first one they released where I was like… ohhhhh, they actually did this one CORRECTLY. The captures sound good, the cabs sound good… and the cab IR versatiliity also sounds good. But there is a big disconnect between plugins.
There is nothing you can do to convince me that pickups, and IRs etc… are magically going to change the sim into something that it is not. Can we EQ it to sound like the actual amp? Yeah… but why do we have to was my original question.
And clearly NDSP knows this because some of the plugins DO SOUND really good right out of the box… like they sound like you’re playing WITH the song, not overtop of it. And some of the plugins - have such a nasty EQ curve that they either disappear in the music entirely, or iit just sounds like someone is playing over a track.
You guys get the difference, right?
“Mix Ready” simply means - you can turn your guitar on, load up a sound, and start playing with music and it actually meshes and it sounds like stale, flat, boring, and lifeless.
You are just aggressively looking for people to agree with you, when clearly, many do not. If you have amp simulators you enjoy that work for what you want them to, why not use those ? Why do you need 10 different versions of the same thing ?
Everyone else seems to be doing fine with them. Have you considered EQing your track around the amp sim ? EQing your bass to compensate for the different sounds ? Or do you just wanna do covers over existing songs, because it sounds like you have amp sims that do that for you already
The purpose you use amp sims for, and how some work better for that purpose, is not a universal experience for the rest of us. You need to accept that.
Again, you’re ignoring the fact that you probably have a different guitar, different pickups, different monitors, etc., than Plini himself. Presets are a starting point, not the destination.
I’m oooooouuuuuuuuut of this discussion from now on.
Actually no - I figured the neuralDSP forum would be for only people that are fans of nDSP- therefore would probably be quick to rush to defend the brand.
But I’m sure bringing up that some of the plugins were EQ’d to only sound good on Neurals equipment, and nobody elses - has been brought up before. And by no coincidence - they are EQ’ing their plugins BETTER now … then they did during the first few releases. Go figure?
I wouldn’t normally expect any presets to be mix ready… For even the simple fact of musical tastes differ then guitars differ then the player differs a heavy picking hand a light touch etc etc … But some folks will find alot of them mix ready cause they suit there style… I use ndsp plugins and Quad cortex and none of there presets I would use… They all sound terrible to me…but when I set up my own presets from scratch I know what I want like I would with any real amp an fx…
I think my thought process on this topic used to be like yours… where I just expected them all to sound like shit - and then we go compress, EQ, etc… to make them sound good. But I started thinking about it differently - once plugin manufacturers started making VSTs that ALREADY sound good without me having to do that. OR - how many artists use the Quad Cortex - but NONE of them use it for what it can do - but use it as a Rig Capture. If the thing can’t possibly sound good on its own - and only as a rig capture - then why would anyone buy it? And sales DID hurt for that aspect + not having plugin integration. Obviously these are things NDSP is correcting, which is great! So I do think this topic I am discussing is something that is valid for the future direction NDSP.
I have two major use cases for the VSTs…
#1 To record tracks. And in which case - I don’t mind using a tone just as a rough placeholder to get a DI track down, and worry about it later. For this - sure, the nDSP stuff works fine.
#2 I use the stand alone when I feel like jamming. So I want to be able to just boot it up - throw in a song, and play with it to practice. Well - then it becomes an issue because the tones obviously ARE NOT run thru an entire DAW of plugins to make them what we want.
Hence in my issues (#2) with the plugins NOT being good out of the box. .
If anyone really wants to see what I’m getting it - download a trial demo of McRocklins plugin. Boot up a random backing track - and look how nicely those tones sound RIGHT out of the box, and also how well those tones sound in the context of drums and bass. They just FIT.
This is kinda like the unmixed vs mixed drums argument. And I hear the people above in this thread that are like - well if you don’t like NDSP’s stuff - use something else. But at the end of the day - I do own a lot of their stuff - and would like to continue owning their stuff - and I do not think it’s unreasonable to put out this type of criticism for future products.
I actually don’t use the QC for captures like whatsoever. I prefer the amp models, mainly for live use but have used the amp models on a few albums. I liked the tone I got from the QC more than the actual amp it is modeling. Didn’t need any extra trickery outside of a couple IR’s that I like to use.
I am in the market for a small floorboard - so I want to keep the QC in contention.
Like many my experience of the QC was…
#1 Go to NAMM - They didn’t show up. #2 Finally gets made - UI is gorgeous but sonically it dropped the ball esp during this tiime where AxeFX was its #1 competition. #3 Lack of promises made aka SOON on plugin integration… never happend for years #4 Lots of artists on board but they’re using it as a mobile rig solution - a more compact Kemper.
So this thread is not a “I hate NDSP” thread like I’m sure it looks like… but moreso a - I need tools that just make me want to play as soon as I plug into them. Or tools that don’t consume all my time by having to edit them to the extreme to make the useable.
Judging by the replies here - some people cool with that AND expect that. But I just feel like we are passed that point. Like the free Neural Amp Modeler - has a community of UNREAL sounding captures that we can just jump into and use. But it’s free…
If I’m paying money - I expect the paid versions to justify the price basically. Like if I grab a QC or a FM3 or FM9… I expect those programs to run circles around user created programs. Or else what are we doing?
I think you are expecting what I think is impossible… Even last nite I was using the QC with a different guitar… And some of the presets that I thought sounded terrible with my strat and tele, sounded very good with my 335… I’ve had a fractal for a while and wasn’t impressed by that machine either headrush definitely a no go, for boss gx and gt1000 don’t like and helix is a terrible sounding unit… But that’s to me what I hear and what I like… But neural fits what I hear in my head that I like… I think you need to find you like and stick with that… I will trial that plugin in the next hour or so and will see if I hear what you say I’m expecting greatness, cause in almost 40yrs playing I’ve always had to make my own presets
Just to say I have installed and tested it and I think I would not use this piece of software even if it was free… The cleans are terrible remind me off shred amp same with the gain and edge… Does not sound natural atal that’s to me what I think, And would need even more tweaking to maybe get somtin… And I wouldn’t bother to try… That’s my opinion of course but if you like that sound that’s what you should use… I’m being direct and not insulting so don’t take it any other way…
McRocklin literally made his entire promotion about his plugin as “These are mixready tones that sound good right out of the box”. And they do. ‘This is what you quoted’
And they are not anywhere near ndsp plugins of course my opinion